Two AOTCR developments Posted by: Rockslider on 4/14/16 3:44AM EST Return to the Message Index Reply
  • avatar United Kingdom Rockslider April 14 2016 at 3:44 AM EST Posts: 18 1
    There have been two separate advances in the recent Banshee grabbing business at the first bridge of AOTCR.

    Firstly, I've honed a more controlled arch method and used it to do a Legendary PAL run in 5:54 - which I think is the first ever speed run using a grab. I haven't yet covered it in my bridge Banshee grab article, but meanwhile there's some description in the movie's written commentary at my site.

    Secondly, there's been a stunning breakthrough from Sligfantry, who found a way of boarding the Banshee fast with his rim method. Looks like it beats my arch method by a couple of seconds (ouch!), so it may well become the standard method for speedrunning. The reliability is unclear, but maybe it has the advantage on that score too; I haven't yet checked that out myself.

    So all in all, I think it's now very much 'game on' for the speedrunning community!
  • avatar Netherlands ColdGrunter April 15 2016 at 9:10 AM EST Posts: 9 2
    I've spent 3 hours yesterday on getting the IL, but unfortunately with no success. However I got very close once with Sligfantry's improved rim method.

    I also felt like I got a bit better at it during the stream, so I believe the first IL time with banshee grab isn't far away.

    Huge thanks btw for finding and researching this. You guys are awesome! :D
  • avatar United Kingdom Rockslider April 15 2016 at 11:00 AM EST Posts: 18 3
    Well the first breakthrough IL time with Banshee grab already exists, i.e. my run, but that's for PAL of course, which is a separate playing field from NTSC/PC - where I realize the main interest will lie. I see you're Dutch, so I guess you're using PC?

    Anyway, thanks for the report and appreciation. I would've liked to see your closest try, but Twitch doesn't work for me. Did you try my new arch method at all, or did you just go for the rim method? I still don't know if my arch method would need tweaking for NTSC/PC (like, slightly different positioning or crouch-timing).
  • avatar United States RedMage08 April 15 2016 at 11:06 AM EST Posts: 59 4
    Could this be the return of the CE R&D? :P

    The second method is shown to work on PC, and it seems to be a 100% trick if you do it right, however I haven't done it much so I'm sure the Banshee can do some dumb AI thing and ruin it, but it is CE after all.

    Also this is, to my knowledge, a faster method than the CEDS run used, so could this be the second mission to cut CEDS?
  • avatar Sligfantry April 15 2016 at 12:10 PM EST Posts: 2 5
    @ColdGrunter; I think your failure was caused by you turning the wrong way as you jumped over the Banshee. Try looking left next time.

    @RedMage08; Technically its a 100% trick, but it still may need some refinement to improve reliability (if thats at all possible).
  • avatar Netherlands ColdGrunter April 15 2016 at 12:24 PM EST Posts: 9 6
    Sorry Rockslider, with IL I meant a new wr time. And yes I'm using PC.

    I did try your arch method as well after you posted your segmented run, but couldn't find a setup that was consistent enough to do IL attempts with. I have yet to try your latest approach. I tried the new rim method a couple of tries and was able to eject the elite quite often (and it seemed about as fast as your arch method), so I was excited to start doing actual attempts.

    Thanks for the heads-up Sligfantry, hopefully that'll help next time!

    I believe the aotcr in segmented is a 5:19. A fast banshee grab can save 15 seconds so it can definitely beat that time.

  • avatar United Kingdom Rockslider April 15 2016 at 1:46 PM EST Posts: 18 7
    @ColdGrunter Sure you meant a new WR time; but so did I. In your case NTSC/PC, in my case PAL. Except entirely unofficial of course, since there's no established PAL table - a pity I think!

    From what you say about trying the rim method, it sounds like it may very well give a higher success rate than my new arch method. However, you only said "quite often", so I'm not sure what sort of figure we're talking about. What I'd really like to hear (from anyone) is the approximate percentage of times on which a quick boarding is achieved, from a starting point prior to the loading point.

    @Sligfantry/RedMage08 What do you mean by a 100% trick? Sligfantry estimated needing like 15-25 tries to board, and if I understand correctly, that's only after getting the Banshee stuck; so the task of getting the Banshee stuck will reduce the overall odds even further. That's why I'm a bit mystified to hear any talk of 100%.
  • avatar United States RedMage08 April 15 2016 at 1:53 PM EST Posts: 59 8
    I practiced for a bit this morning and I got the banshee stuck quite often, and if I had proper timing. The ejection is an angle, so once the angle is determined, you should be able to have it 100%, or at least close.
  • avatar Netherlands ColdGrunter April 15 2016 at 5:29 PM EST Posts: 9 9
    I got the thing :)

    I figured out a way to get banshee to eject the elite much more consistently. If he gets stuck in the rim, looking (actually aiming) at him will make him move. Condition is that the elite can also see you, so it doesn't work if you stand behind him. Also blue elites don't react to this. So what I try to do is stand on the banshee between his nose and wing and get there without aiming at the banshee. After I get into position I look at the banshee and mash the e button (action button). I get into the banshee like 40% of the time with this (i.e. from a checkpoint where he is already stuck in the rim).

    Now I didn't research this a whole lot, so some things might not be entirely correct, but it's worth it to look into.

    I made a short tutorial about it.

    Edited by ColdGrunter on April 15 2016 at 5:40 PM EST
  • avatar United Kingdom Rockslider April 15 2016 at 6:07 PM EST Posts: 18 10
    Nice. But especially, good to hear you found a way to eject the pilot more consistently. I'll be trying that out on PAL (I still didn't have any success with Sligfantry's new method yet).

    How come you thought you'd only save around 15 seconds? In my HBO forum post about the speedrunning aspect of Banshee grabbing, I estimated the possible time save as maybe over 50 seconds, and it looks like that's going to be close! Of course, you'll be reducing the time further in later runs.

    I have another question. How easily do you get the Banshee stuck? Like, what sort of success rate?
  • avatar Netherlands ColdGrunter April 15 2016 at 6:46 PM EST Posts: 9 11
    I'm actually confused now as well as to how I came up with 15 seconds lol. I think I underestimated the difference between what you did in your segmented run and how well a PC run could go. I only recently realized how different PAL is from other versions.

    I found getting the banshee stuck in the rim hard to get too. In my last stream I got him stuck 10-20% of the time after I got to the bridge. Hopefully we can find something to get him stuck more often and this may one day turn out to be viable for speedrunning full game.

    Not sure it can go sub 4:40, but a low 4:4x is definitely possible.
  • avatar United Kingdom Rockslider April 15 2016 at 7:31 PM EST Posts: 18 12
    Well, if you can get it stuck 20% of the time and then board fast 40% of those times, that would mean an overall success rate of 8%, which I suspect is more than my arch method can manage (I need to do more testing). But to beat the speed of the arch method, you might need to board the Banshee a touch faster than you did in this run, spending less time on the nose. I expect you'll soon be doing that though.

    Incidentally, I noticed that at the first two big doors (2:12, 2:37), you had your Banshee up against them as they were opening. Obviously you're trying to squeeze it through as early as possible. But have you ever tested that against trying to fly through the gap at top speed? Because, with the latter method the Banshee won't need to spend time accelerating of course. I've been doing the latter.

    PS: On your profile, the link for your YT channel gives 'This channel does not exist' (which is why I previously thought you had no channel any more).
  • avatar Sligfantry April 16 2016 at 8:58 AM EST Posts: 2 13
    @ColdGrunter; it would appear you had everything under control after all! Well done with the run and finding a new technique.
  • avatar United States RedMage08 April 16 2016 at 10:57 AM EST Posts: 59 14
    @CG you probably had the CEDS version in your mind, which saves around 15s
  • avatar United Kingdom Rockslider April 16 2016 at 7:17 PM EST Posts: 18 15
    I've been spending some time with the rim method. On the positive side, I've found a way to get the Banshee stuck with over 40% success rate. On the negative side, I've only managed to board once, so I'm wondering if there's something about PAL which makes it harder. Either that or I'm doing something wrong! Well, I'm not beat yet…
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